________________________________
From: Research on behalf of Challenger LL
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2018 8:39 AM
To: makas; research; kim tsutsui; jjones; dfitzgerald
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
The book on "Red Road" about the haplogroup, Native Americans - I have made searches for anything that covers these terms for published books and I could not find any leads for such a book. There are at least a half dozen books including "Red Road" in their title that are about Native Americans but I could not tie them to the book that
you are interested in. I believe that you will need to provide more information on the book in order to locate it. Do you remember where you came across the reference to the book?
thank you for checking. this book was in the Nuestros ranchos links under Native American DNA but now when I enter there it puts me back online with titles rather than the book. The author/researcher was female. I was hoping that maybe Arturo would remember it. It had grafs showing the haplo groups A through D and which tribes the females carried these lines in the Northern Hemesphere from Alaska to South America and the islands around there. I was hoping maybe I was the only one who could not access it on Nuestros..
thank you, Linda in Everett
________________________________
From: Rolando Romo
To: "research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org"
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 9:17 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
The book on "Red Road" about the haplogroup, Native Americans - I have made searches for anything that covers these terms for published books and I could not find any leads for such a book. There are at least a half dozen books including "Red Road" in their title that are about Native Americans but I could not tie them to the book that
you are interested in. I believe that you will need to provide more information on the book in order to locate it. Do you remember where you came across the reference to the book?
Hi, I was wondering if anyone had any information on the Gonzalez Roman family out of Rancho Aguacaliente Municipio de Chimaltitlan Jalisco, Miguel Gonzales and Carmen Roman were residents there. I am searching for a thread to follow that will tell me where the families were from before that.
Mrs. Rosi N Gonzalez
A volunteer in Monterey County CA.
In quietness and confidence shall be my strength. Isiah 30:15
Originally it was a jewish tradition in parts of italy and spain where the first born took the fathers last name then you went down the list on the grandparents and great grandparents last names. There was an order to it. The order sometimes got messed up due to a child's death or the parents changing it for some other reason.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
I would just combine the names and put them together, since they were interchangeable.
So put your ancestor as X Garcia Garza or Garza Garcia whatever you feel.
I also have this issues when woman and some men use their maternal name and perfer it,
Ill just put a note on the indivudual and hange their name to the one they used. So in mydatabase
if a Joseph Luna married MAria Gonzalez and their faughter Ana used Garcia after the paternal grandmother
in my database shell be listed as Ana Garcia not Ana Luna. These are always tricky and we have to
be careful with documentation. IThey also help identify ancestry. When men do this it is also very
interesting especially with the Guerra family of Los Altos, a perfect example of Alonso Guerra Valadez
who used his maternal grandfather's name since he had no sons of his own.
Once women have 4 or 5 names they used thats when it gets complicated, cant help you there :)
but I just make quick note of al that
Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 03:01:29 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
>
> One of my ancestors with the last name marin comes up with one record with her name listed as Martin. None of her ancestors (all lines) for 200 years are Martin so the priest most likely made a mistake when he should have written Marin.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alice Blake
> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:03:19
> To:
> Reply-To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
>
> Dear Group,
> What is the recommended course of action?
> I'm accustomed to the regular changes in surname spelling, but recently I've come across the Garza/Garcia situation. I've always considered these surnames to be distinctly different, but I'm not sure that in the past that was always the case.
> On one 1715 IGI entry it states the parents as "Juan Garza or Garcia", and Jacinta Minchaca. I've viewed the actual entry and Garcia is clearly entered.
> Two years later 1717, another child, same couple, same place, the father's name on the entry is clearly "Juan Garza".
> Three years later, 1720, the IGI entry lists the baptismal name as "Pedro Garza or Garcia", and the father as "Juan Garza or Garcia". Why did IGI enter Garza or Garcia if the actual document clearly reads Juan Garza? That's why I'm asking if the names are interchangeable.
> How do I handle this? For my records I've entered it both ways, but aren't they two different surnames? And won't that cause problems later? Thanks so much for your expertise and help, Alice
In studying the records of San José de Gracia, Aguascalientes, I have
determined that the "original records" are not really original. In
that parish, for example, there are a great many oodles and gobs of
mistakes like the ones described in this thread. Because the records
are hand-written copies from other books or papers. Each month begins
with the records from Rincón de Romos, and runs from the 1st to the
31st. Then the records from San José de Gracia - another chapel in
that parish - are entered, beginnin with the first of the month and
running in order to the 31st. The only way they could be recorded in
that order is if they were copied from something else.
In noting the many variations of both given names and surnames, I have
noticed that the mistakes are typically variations that LOOK alike
when written, but do not necesarily sound alike - such as Florencia
and Filomena, and Chávez and Chaires, and yes García and Garza. Even
though the Cura's handwriting may be clear, the sources that he copied
from evidently were not.
Other common mistakes:
Gender indicators inconsistant or simply wrong.
Name in margin does not agree with name in the body of the record.
Names of parents and abuelos mixed up.
Part of a record has some information copied from another
unrelated record, often from the preceding record.
Omissions - required information accidentally omitted.
What happens when a priest made a mistake and knew it? In modern
English we were taught in school to put a line through the mistake and
then write it correctly. But many priests simply put () parentheses
around the mistake and continued. If you aren't looking closely you
might miss that. Also if a person extracting names for the IGI wasn't
aware of that practice, he or she might put down something that was
never intended by the original creator of the record.
In other cases, there are variations that do not appear to be
mistakes. Sometimes a parent's name in a dozen different records will
be half one way and half another. Problems with inconsistant family
relationships can sometimes be traced to two siblings who have the
exact same name. Women, particularly, did not always use the same
surname, regardless of marital status. I have some who were known by
as many as seven different surnames.
Not all of the priests were concientious. In the front of each volume
beginning about 1872 is the following notice:
"Y por cuanto á que es tan frecuente que los Ministros dejan sin
firmar las partidas de los bautismos que administran, mandó S.S.Y. que
en lo sucesivo lo hagan en las primeros ocho dias del mes precisamente
con las del anterior, bajo el concepto que no verificandolo, pagarán
por cada vez que falten dos pesos á beneficio de la fábrica
espiritual, sin perjuicio de la responsabilidad de conciencia que
reportan por no cumplir con ese deber, y á fin de que se tenga siempre
presente ésta disposición, cuyo cumplimiento será de la
responsabilidad de los párrocos, se copiarsá la presente cláusula al
principio de los Libros que se hagan en lo sucesivo, Así S.S.Ylma. lo
proveyó, mandó, y firmó. - firmado + Pedro - Arzobpo. de Guad.a - una
rúbrica - Jacinto Lopez - una rúbrica - P. Srio." Es cópia que
certifica.
Very rough translation:
Inasmuch as it is so frequent that the Ministers do not sign the
certificates of the Baptisms they (have) administered, it is so
ordered that, from now on, in the first eight days of the month
precisely, all of the certificates of the previous month must be
verified ... or they will be fined two pesos for each failure to
comply ... and it will be the responsibility of the parish priests
that this clause shall be copied to the front of every volume ...
Provided, ordered, and affirmed by the Archbishop of Guadalajara ...
Stuart,
Fantastic synopsis of clerical mistakes made in parishes. I particularly enjoyed the document regarding the fine imposed by the bishop in an attempt to force some careless priests get their act together regarding keeping accurate records. Also, the information you provides teaches us a very important lesson: whenever possible back up your research with multiple sources.
Stuart,
Fantastic synopsis of clerical mistakes made in parishes. I particularly enjoyed the document regarding the fine imposed by the bishop in an attempt to force some careless priests get their act together regarding keeping accurate records. Also, the information you provides teaches us a very important lesson: whenever possible back up your research with multiple sources.
Thanks so much, Stuart. Many things to consider. Being a novice at genealogy, I took for granted that the record entries I was reading were the originals. I've run across all sorts of things, like an entry stating a Sept date placed in the middle of Nov. One of my favorites is the ever helpful, "on the same day, of the same month, of the same year" on page after page! Thanks so much, Alice
--- On Mon, 7/19/10, Stuart Armstrong wrote:
From: Stuart Armstrong
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:25 PM
>...so the priest most likely made a mistake ...
In studying the records of San José de Gracia, Aguascalientes, I have
determined that the "original records" are not really original. In
that parish, for example, there are a great many oodles and gobs of
mistakes like the ones described in this thread. Because the records
are hand-written copies from other books or papers. Each month begins
with the records from Rincón de Romos, and runs from the 1st to the
31st. Then the records from San José de Gracia - another chapel in
that parish - are entered, beginnin with the first of the month and
running in order to the 31st. The only way they could be recorded in
that order is if they were copied from something else.
In noting the many variations of both given names and surnames, I have
noticed that the mistakes are typically variations that LOOK alike
when written, but do not necesarily sound alike - such as Florencia
and Filomena, and Chávez and Chaires, and yes García and Garza. Even
though the Cura's handwriting may be clear, the sources that he copied
from evidently were not.
Other common mistakes:
Gender indicators inconsistant or simply wrong.
Name in margin does not agree with name in the body of the record.
Names of parents and abuelos mixed up.
Part of a record has some information copied from another
unrelated record, often from the preceding record.
Omissions - required information accidentally omitted.
What happens when a priest made a mistake and knew it? In modern
English we were taught in school to put a line through the mistake and
then write it correctly. But many priests simply put () parentheses
around the mistake and continued. If you aren't looking closely you
might miss that. Also if a person extracting names for the IGI wasn't
aware of that practice, he or she might put down something that was
never intended by the original creator of the record.
In other cases, there are variations that do not appear to be
mistakes. Sometimes a parent's name in a dozen different records will
be half one way and half another. Problems with inconsistant family
relationships can sometimes be traced to two siblings who have the
exact same name. Women, particularly, did not always use the same
surname, regardless of marital status. I have some who were known by
as many as seven different surnames.
Not all of the priests were concientious. In the front of each volume
beginning about 1872 is the following notice:
"Y por cuanto á que es tan frecuente que los Ministros dejan sin
firmar las partidas de los bautismos que administran, mandó S.S.Y. que
en lo sucesivo lo hagan en las primeros ocho dias del mes precisamente
con las del anterior, bajo el concepto que no verificandolo, pagarán
por cada vez que falten dos pesos á beneficio de la fábrica
espiritual, sin perjuicio de la responsabilidad de conciencia que
reportan por no cumplir con ese deber, y á fin de que se tenga siempre
presente ésta disposición, cuyo cumplimiento será de la
responsabilidad de los párrocos, se copiarsá la presente cláusula al
principio de los Libros que se hagan en lo sucesivo, Así S.S.Ylma. lo
proveyó, mandó, y firmó. - firmado + Pedro - Arzobpo. de Guad.a - una
rúbrica - Jacinto Lopez - una rúbrica - P. Srio." Es cópia que
certifica.
Very rough translation:
Inasmuch as it is so frequent that the Ministers do not sign the
certificates of the Baptisms they (have) administered, it is so
ordered that, from now on, in the first eight days of the month
precisely, all of the certificates of the previous month must be
verified ... or they will be fined two pesos for each failure to
comply ... and it will be the responsibility of the parish priests
that this clause shall be copied to the front of every volume ...
Provided, ordered, and affirmed by the Archbishop of Guadalajara ...
Alice,
The scenario you mention regarding IGI record ambiguity is an important one, and that is why it is important to go to the source. As you explain, the record clearly reads one surname instead of the other, yet the indexer could not make his mind and decided to enter both. Granted, you also have to consider the possibility of priest or the clerk in the parish making a mistake. I've have found many obvious errors in marriage and baptismal records, sometimes the error is repeating the entering the name of another person listed in the same date in the same book. It would appear as if the clerk was in a hurry, and forgot the names of the persons, and made a simple clerical error.
It is helpful when considering any genealogical source to find out, or imagine, how the record was created, and how the information was gathered. Most genealogical records are not court depositions, where the testimony of each informant was rigorously cross-examined for acurracy and validity. Technically, most genealogical evidence is just one step above hear-say.
Consider a christening record, for example. Who was present at the christening? Likely, the mother was not: she may have been at home, secluded, as was sometimes the custom. How well informed were those present concerning the mother's parents? Or of when the baby was actually born? How far was the chapel from the parents' residence? Who made the journey? Or did the priest go to the family? Did he carry the record book with him? Did the priest know the family? Did he make the record himself or did an assistant? Was the record made at the time of the christening or later from memory? Did the priest gather the information amid a lot of conversation and confusion? Was he in a hurry? Did the informants have anything to hide? How many times was the record copied? ...
There are hundreds of such questions. Always consider the circumstances and the times, and imagin the possible variations.
Alice Blake wrote:
>Thanks so much, Stuart. Many things to consider. Being a novice at genealogy, I took for granted that the record entries I was reading were the originals. I've run across all sorts of things, like an entry stating a Sept date placed in the middle of Nov. One of my favorites is the ever helpful, "on the same day, of the same month, of the same year" on page after page! Thanks so much, Alice
>
>--- On Mon, 7/19/10, Stuart Armstrong wrote:
>
>
>From: Stuart Armstrong
>Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
>To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:25 PM
>
>
>>...so the priest most likely made a mistake ...
>
>In studying the records of San José de Gracia, Aguascalientes, I have
>determined that the "original records" are not really original. In
>that parish, for example, there are a great many oodles and gobs of
>mistakes like the ones described in this thread. Because the records
>are hand-written copies from other books or papers. Each month begins
>with the records from Rincón de Romos, and runs from the 1st to the
>31st. Then the records from San José de Gracia - another chapel in
>that parish - are entered, beginnin with the first of the month and
>running in order to the 31st. The only way they could be recorded in
>that order is if they were copied from something else.
>
>In noting the many variations of both given names and surnames, I have
>noticed that the mistakes are typically variations that LOOK alike
>when written, but do not necesarily sound alike - such as Florencia
>and Filomena, and Chávez and Chaires, and yes García and Garza. Even
>though the Cura's handwriting may be clear, the sources that he copied
>from evidently were not.
>
>Other common mistakes:
> Gender indicators inconsistant or simply wrong.
> Name in margin does not agree with name in the body of the record.
> Names of parents and abuelos mixed up.
> Part of a record has some information copied from another
> unrelated record, often from the preceding record.
> Omissions - required information accidentally omitted.
>
>What happens when a priest made a mistake and knew it? In modern
>English we were taught in school to put a line through the mistake and
>then write it correctly. But many priests simply put () parentheses
>around the mistake and continued. If you aren't looking closely you
>might miss that. Also if a person extracting names for the IGI wasn't
>aware of that practice, he or she might put down something that was
>never intended by the original creator of the record.
>
>In other cases, there are variations that do not appear to be
>mistakes. Sometimes a parent's name in a dozen different records will
>be half one way and half another. Problems with inconsistant family
>relationships can sometimes be traced to two siblings who have the
>exact same name. Women, particularly, did not always use the same
>surname, regardless of marital status. I have some who were known by
>as many as seven different surnames.
>
>Not all of the priests were concientious. In the front of each volume
>beginning about 1872 is the following notice:
>
>"Y por cuanto á que es tan frecuente que los Ministros dejan sin
>firmar las partidas de los bautismos que administran, mandó S.S.Y. que
>en lo sucesivo lo hagan en las primeros ocho dias del mes precisamente
>con las del anterior, bajo el concepto que no verificandolo, pagarán
>por cada vez que falten dos pesos á beneficio de la fábrica
>espiritual, sin perjuicio de la responsabilidad de conciencia que
>reportan por no cumplir con ese deber, y á fin de que se tenga siempre
>presente ésta disposición, cuyo cumplimiento será de la
>responsabilidad de los párrocos, se copiarsá la presente cláusula al
>principio de los Libros que se hagan en lo sucesivo, Así S.S.Ylma. lo
>proveyó, mandó, y firmó. - firmado + Pedro - Arzobpo. de Guad.a - una
>rúbrica - Jacinto Lopez - una rúbrica - P. Srio." Es cópia que
>certifica.
>
>Very rough translation:
>
>Inasmuch as it is so frequent that the Ministers do not sign the
>certificates of the Baptisms they (have) administered, it is so
>ordered that, from now on, in the first eight days of the month
>precisely, all of the certificates of the previous month must be
>verified ... or they will be fined two pesos for each failure to
>comply ... and it will be the responsibility of the parish priests
>that this clause shall be copied to the front of every volume ...
>Provided, ordered, and affirmed by the Archbishop of Guadalajara ...
>
>
>
>-- Best regards, Stuart
>mailto:stuartarms@gmail.com
>
Thank you, thank you, thank you to Jaime Alvarado. I had been searching various records for that baptismfor some time. How were you able to find it so easily? Very greatful. Thank you also for the input fromeveryone as I continue the search.Deedra Corona
Deedra,
I've experienced several instances where either the indexer made a mistake, or where the priest or the clerk at the parish entered the wrong year. Thus, what I do first is to got to the previous and to the next year (same month and date as indexed). This is what I did in your case, and it worked!
Mon, 31 Oct 2011 16:04:15
_________________________________
"So he took up his stick again, and tried to thrust the end of the stick _into_ the roll." (c) Terrell wbxmlaa
When I find a lead on familysearch.com that I want to explore further, there is often an LDS tape cited. When I view this it is a parish book with many pages. Is there a way to find the particular page for the record of interest? I used to order the roll from Salt Lake City and spin through it until my record was found.
When you find the date of the record on familysearch.org then you can look
at the start date of the film and go via multiple pages until you get closer
to that date. If you pass it then go a few pages back. Once you done this a
few times it will get easier to jump to the right section of the film. Just
keep track of how many pages you leap forward and how that corresponds to
number of years you've gone forward to.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Research [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On
> Behalf Of mercado@riverfast.net
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 4:15 PM
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
>
> When I find a lead on familysearch.com that I want to explore further,
> there is often an LDS tape cited. When I view this it is a parish book
> with many pages. Is there a way to find the particular page for the
> record of interest? I used to order the roll from Salt Lake City and
> spin through it until my record was found.
>
>
> Thank You, Harry
>
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
I have sort of the same question of Mr. Ricci, but I noticed on several
peoples different trees they have Diego Perez De Vivar and Catalina Ponce
De Leon as the Grandparents of our Capitan Diego Romo De Vivar like these
peoples
(no subject)
Joseph, did you see this? Looks like an ad.
________________________________ on behalf of Challenger LL
From: Research
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2018 8:39 AM
To: makas; research; kim tsutsui; jjones; dfitzgerald
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ffolder…
Challenger Ll
(no subject)
http://thaiservices.com.au/google.php
(no subject)
http://www.agilenetsolutions.com/google.php
(no subject)
http://sportclix.com/google.php
(no subject)
Raymond Medrano
(no subject)
http://www.mogadishupost.com/wp-content/uploads/fgallery/xmas.php?good128.gif
(no subject)
The book on "Red Road" about the haplogroup, Native Americans - I have made searches for anything that covers these terms for published books and I could not find any leads for such a book. There are at least a half dozen books including "Red Road" in their title that are about Native Americans but I could not tie them to the book that
you are interested in. I believe that you will need to provide more information on the book in order to locate it. Do you remember where you came across the reference to the book?
Rolando Medellin Romo
Native American groups A to D
thank you for checking. this book was in the Nuestros ranchos links under Native American DNA but now when I enter there it puts me back online with titles rather than the book. The author/researcher was female. I was hoping that maybe Arturo would remember it. It had grafs showing the haplo groups A through D and which tribes the females carried these lines in the Northern Hemesphere from Alaska to South America and the islands around there. I was hoping maybe I was the only one who could not access it on Nuestros..
thank you, Linda in Everett
________________________________
From: Rolando Romo
To: "research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org"
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2012 9:17 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
The book on "Red Road" about the haplogroup, Native Americans - I have made searches for anything that covers these terms for published books and I could not find any leads for such a book. There are at least a half dozen books including "Red Road" in their title that are about Native Americans but I could not tie them to the book that
you are interested in. I believe that you will need to provide more information on the book in order to locate it. Do you remember where you came across the reference to the book?
Rolando Medellin Romo
(no subject)
http://www.carter.macnook.com/wp/wp-content/themes/default/kgohng.html?…
(no subject)
http://www.happymole.com/drawing/wp-content/themes/cssgallerytheme/godm…
(no subject)
http://www.formarsecomoprofesor.es/wp-content/themes/twentyten/ujfms.ht…
(no subject)
http://www.institutofidelitas.com/rumyn.html?api=etqlakik
(no subject)
http://pianojussi.se/nvlauty.html?wt=fqlyjr
(no subject)
Hi, I was wondering if anyone had any information on the Gonzalez Roman family out of Rancho Aguacaliente Municipio de Chimaltitlan Jalisco, Miguel Gonzales and Carmen Roman were residents there. I am searching for a thread to follow that will tell me where the families were from before that.
Mrs. Rosi N Gonzalez
A volunteer in Monterey County CA.
In quietness and confidence shall be my strength. Isiah 30:15
(no subject)
http://mitsuvidha.com/wp-content/themes/twentyeleven/mynews.php?spite29…
(no subject)
(no subject)
Remove Me from mailing lists. Thank you.
(no subject)
Originally it was a jewish tradition in parts of italy and spain where the first born took the fathers last name then you went down the list on the grandparents and great grandparents last names. There was an order to it. The order sometimes got messed up due to a child's death or the parents changing it for some other reason.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 20:12:03
To: Patty Hoyos
Reply-To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
I would just combine the names and put them together, since they were interchangeable.
So put your ancestor as X Garcia Garza or Garza Garcia whatever you feel.
I also have this issues when woman and some men use their maternal name and perfer it,
Ill just put a note on the indivudual and hange their name to the one they used. So in mydatabase
if a Joseph Luna married MAria Gonzalez and their faughter Ana used Garcia after the paternal grandmother
in my database shell be listed as Ana Garcia not Ana Luna. These are always tricky and we have to
be careful with documentation. IThey also help identify ancestry. When men do this it is also very
interesting especially with the Guerra family of Los Altos, a perfect example of Alonso Guerra Valadez
who used his maternal grandfather's name since he had no sons of his own.
Once women have 4 or 5 names they used thats when it gets complicated, cant help you there :)
but I just make quick note of al that
Daniel Mendez de Camino y Garcia de Leon
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 03:01:29 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
>
> One of my ancestors with the last name marin comes up with one record with her name listed as Martin. None of her ancestors (all lines) for 200 years are Martin so the priest most likely made a mistake when he should have written Marin.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alice Blake
> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 19:03:19
> To:
> Reply-To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
>
> Dear Group,
> What is the recommended course of action?
> I'm accustomed to the regular changes in surname spelling, but recently I've come across the Garza/Garcia situation. I've always considered these surnames to be distinctly different, but I'm not sure that in the past that was always the case.
> On one 1715 IGI entry it states the parents as "Juan Garza or Garcia", and Jacinta Minchaca. I've viewed the actual entry and Garcia is clearly entered.
> Two years later 1717, another child, same couple, same place, the father's name on the entry is clearly "Juan Garza".
> Three years later, 1720, the IGI entry lists the baptismal name as "Pedro Garza or Garcia", and the father as "Juan Garza or Garcia". Why did IGI enter Garza or Garcia if the actual document clearly reads Juan Garza? That's why I'm asking if the names are interchangeable.
> How do I handle this? For my records I've entered it both ways, but aren't they two different surnames? And won't that cause problems later? Thanks so much for your expertise and help, Alice
(no subject)
>...so the priest most likely made a mistake ...
In studying the records of San José de Gracia, Aguascalientes, I have
determined that the "original records" are not really original. In
that parish, for example, there are a great many oodles and gobs of
mistakes like the ones described in this thread. Because the records
are hand-written copies from other books or papers. Each month begins
with the records from Rincón de Romos, and runs from the 1st to the
31st. Then the records from San José de Gracia - another chapel in
that parish - are entered, beginnin with the first of the month and
running in order to the 31st. The only way they could be recorded in
that order is if they were copied from something else.
In noting the many variations of both given names and surnames, I have
noticed that the mistakes are typically variations that LOOK alike
when written, but do not necesarily sound alike - such as Florencia
and Filomena, and Chávez and Chaires, and yes García and Garza. Even
though the Cura's handwriting may be clear, the sources that he copied
from evidently were not.
Other common mistakes:
Gender indicators inconsistant or simply wrong.
Name in margin does not agree with name in the body of the record.
Names of parents and abuelos mixed up.
Part of a record has some information copied from another
unrelated record, often from the preceding record.
Omissions - required information accidentally omitted.
What happens when a priest made a mistake and knew it? In modern
English we were taught in school to put a line through the mistake and
then write it correctly. But many priests simply put () parentheses
around the mistake and continued. If you aren't looking closely you
might miss that. Also if a person extracting names for the IGI wasn't
aware of that practice, he or she might put down something that was
never intended by the original creator of the record.
In other cases, there are variations that do not appear to be
mistakes. Sometimes a parent's name in a dozen different records will
be half one way and half another. Problems with inconsistant family
relationships can sometimes be traced to two siblings who have the
exact same name. Women, particularly, did not always use the same
surname, regardless of marital status. I have some who were known by
as many as seven different surnames.
Not all of the priests were concientious. In the front of each volume
beginning about 1872 is the following notice:
"Y por cuanto á que es tan frecuente que los Ministros dejan sin
firmar las partidas de los bautismos que administran, mandó S.S.Y. que
en lo sucesivo lo hagan en las primeros ocho dias del mes precisamente
con las del anterior, bajo el concepto que no verificandolo, pagarán
por cada vez que falten dos pesos á beneficio de la fábrica
espiritual, sin perjuicio de la responsabilidad de conciencia que
reportan por no cumplir con ese deber, y á fin de que se tenga siempre
presente ésta disposición, cuyo cumplimiento será de la
responsabilidad de los párrocos, se copiarsá la presente cláusula al
principio de los Libros que se hagan en lo sucesivo, Así S.S.Ylma. lo
proveyó, mandó, y firmó. - firmado + Pedro - Arzobpo. de Guad.a - una
rúbrica - Jacinto Lopez - una rúbrica - P. Srio." Es cópia que
certifica.
Very rough translation:
Inasmuch as it is so frequent that the Ministers do not sign the
certificates of the Baptisms they (have) administered, it is so
ordered that, from now on, in the first eight days of the month
precisely, all of the certificates of the previous month must be
verified ... or they will be fined two pesos for each failure to
comply ... and it will be the responsibility of the parish priests
that this clause shall be copied to the front of every volume ...
Provided, ordered, and affirmed by the Archbishop of Guadalajara ...
-- Best regards, Stuart
mailto:stuartarms@gmail.com
(no subject)
Stuart,
Fantastic synopsis of clerical mistakes made in parishes. I particularly enjoyed the document regarding the fine imposed by the bishop in an attempt to force some careless priests get their act together regarding keeping accurate records. Also, the information you provides teaches us a very important lesson: whenever possible back up your research with multiple sources.
Jaime
(no subject)
Stuart,
Fantastic synopsis of clerical mistakes made in parishes. I particularly enjoyed the document regarding the fine imposed by the bishop in an attempt to force some careless priests get their act together regarding keeping accurate records. Also, the information you provides teaches us a very important lesson: whenever possible back up your research with multiple sources.
Jaime
(no subject)
Thanks so much, Stuart. Many things to consider. Being a novice at genealogy, I took for granted that the record entries I was reading were the originals. I've run across all sorts of things, like an entry stating a Sept date placed in the middle of Nov. One of my favorites is the ever helpful, "on the same day, of the same month, of the same year" on page after page! Thanks so much, Alice
--- On Mon, 7/19/10, Stuart Armstrong wrote:
From: Stuart Armstrong
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:25 PM
>...so the priest most likely made a mistake ...
In studying the records of San José de Gracia, Aguascalientes, I have
determined that the "original records" are not really original. In
that parish, for example, there are a great many oodles and gobs of
mistakes like the ones described in this thread. Because the records
are hand-written copies from other books or papers. Each month begins
with the records from Rincón de Romos, and runs from the 1st to the
31st. Then the records from San José de Gracia - another chapel in
that parish - are entered, beginnin with the first of the month and
running in order to the 31st. The only way they could be recorded in
that order is if they were copied from something else.
In noting the many variations of both given names and surnames, I have
noticed that the mistakes are typically variations that LOOK alike
when written, but do not necesarily sound alike - such as Florencia
and Filomena, and Chávez and Chaires, and yes García and Garza. Even
though the Cura's handwriting may be clear, the sources that he copied
from evidently were not.
Other common mistakes:
Gender indicators inconsistant or simply wrong.
Name in margin does not agree with name in the body of the record.
Names of parents and abuelos mixed up.
Part of a record has some information copied from another
unrelated record, often from the preceding record.
Omissions - required information accidentally omitted.
What happens when a priest made a mistake and knew it? In modern
English we were taught in school to put a line through the mistake and
then write it correctly. But many priests simply put () parentheses
around the mistake and continued. If you aren't looking closely you
might miss that. Also if a person extracting names for the IGI wasn't
aware of that practice, he or she might put down something that was
never intended by the original creator of the record.
In other cases, there are variations that do not appear to be
mistakes. Sometimes a parent's name in a dozen different records will
be half one way and half another. Problems with inconsistant family
relationships can sometimes be traced to two siblings who have the
exact same name. Women, particularly, did not always use the same
surname, regardless of marital status. I have some who were known by
as many as seven different surnames.
Not all of the priests were concientious. In the front of each volume
beginning about 1872 is the following notice:
"Y por cuanto á que es tan frecuente que los Ministros dejan sin
firmar las partidas de los bautismos que administran, mandó S.S.Y. que
en lo sucesivo lo hagan en las primeros ocho dias del mes precisamente
con las del anterior, bajo el concepto que no verificandolo, pagarán
por cada vez que falten dos pesos á beneficio de la fábrica
espiritual, sin perjuicio de la responsabilidad de conciencia que
reportan por no cumplir con ese deber, y á fin de que se tenga siempre
presente ésta disposición, cuyo cumplimiento será de la
responsabilidad de los párrocos, se copiarsá la presente cláusula al
principio de los Libros que se hagan en lo sucesivo, Así S.S.Ylma. lo
proveyó, mandó, y firmó. - firmado + Pedro - Arzobpo. de Guad.a - una
rúbrica - Jacinto Lopez - una rúbrica - P. Srio." Es cópia que
certifica.
Very rough translation:
Inasmuch as it is so frequent that the Ministers do not sign the
certificates of the Baptisms they (have) administered, it is so
ordered that, from now on, in the first eight days of the month
precisely, all of the certificates of the previous month must be
verified ... or they will be fined two pesos for each failure to
comply ... and it will be the responsibility of the parish priests
that this clause shall be copied to the front of every volume ...
Provided, ordered, and affirmed by the Archbishop of Guadalajara ...
-- Best regards, Stuart
mailto:stuartarms@gmail.com
(no subject)
Alice,
The scenario you mention regarding IGI record ambiguity is an important one, and that is why it is important to go to the source. As you explain, the record clearly reads one surname instead of the other, yet the indexer could not make his mind and decided to enter both. Granted, you also have to consider the possibility of priest or the clerk in the parish making a mistake. I've have found many obvious errors in marriage and baptismal records, sometimes the error is repeating the entering the name of another person listed in the same date in the same book. It would appear as if the clerk was in a hurry, and forgot the names of the persons, and made a simple clerical error.
Jaime
(no subject)
It is helpful when considering any genealogical source to find out, or imagine, how the record was created, and how the information was gathered. Most genealogical records are not court depositions, where the testimony of each informant was rigorously cross-examined for acurracy and validity. Technically, most genealogical evidence is just one step above hear-say.
Consider a christening record, for example. Who was present at the christening? Likely, the mother was not: she may have been at home, secluded, as was sometimes the custom. How well informed were those present concerning the mother's parents? Or of when the baby was actually born? How far was the chapel from the parents' residence? Who made the journey? Or did the priest go to the family? Did he carry the record book with him? Did the priest know the family? Did he make the record himself or did an assistant? Was the record made at the time of the christening or later from memory? Did the priest gather the information amid a lot of conversation and confusion? Was he in a hurry? Did the informants have anything to hide? How many times was the record copied? ...
There are hundreds of such questions. Always consider the circumstances and the times, and imagin the possible variations.
Alice Blake wrote:
>Thanks so much, Stuart. Many things to consider. Being a novice at genealogy, I took for granted that the record entries I was reading were the originals. I've run across all sorts of things, like an entry stating a Sept date placed in the middle of Nov. One of my favorites is the ever helpful, "on the same day, of the same month, of the same year" on page after page! Thanks so much, Alice wrote:
>
>--- On Mon, 7/19/10, Stuart Armstrong
>
>
>From: Stuart Armstrong
>Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
>To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>Date: Monday, July 19, 2010, 6:25 PM
>
>
>>...so the priest most likely made a mistake ...
>
>In studying the records of San José de Gracia, Aguascalientes, I have
>determined that the "original records" are not really original. In
>that parish, for example, there are a great many oodles and gobs of
>mistakes like the ones described in this thread. Because the records
>are hand-written copies from other books or papers. Each month begins
>with the records from Rincón de Romos, and runs from the 1st to the
>31st. Then the records from San José de Gracia - another chapel in
>that parish - are entered, beginnin with the first of the month and
>running in order to the 31st. The only way they could be recorded in
>that order is if they were copied from something else.
>
>In noting the many variations of both given names and surnames, I have
>noticed that the mistakes are typically variations that LOOK alike
>when written, but do not necesarily sound alike - such as Florencia
>and Filomena, and Chávez and Chaires, and yes García and Garza. Even
>though the Cura's handwriting may be clear, the sources that he copied
>from evidently were not.
>
>Other common mistakes:
> Gender indicators inconsistant or simply wrong.
> Name in margin does not agree with name in the body of the record.
> Names of parents and abuelos mixed up.
> Part of a record has some information copied from another
> unrelated record, often from the preceding record.
> Omissions - required information accidentally omitted.
>
>What happens when a priest made a mistake and knew it? In modern
>English we were taught in school to put a line through the mistake and
>then write it correctly. But many priests simply put () parentheses
>around the mistake and continued. If you aren't looking closely you
>might miss that. Also if a person extracting names for the IGI wasn't
>aware of that practice, he or she might put down something that was
>never intended by the original creator of the record.
>
>In other cases, there are variations that do not appear to be
>mistakes. Sometimes a parent's name in a dozen different records will
>be half one way and half another. Problems with inconsistant family
>relationships can sometimes be traced to two siblings who have the
>exact same name. Women, particularly, did not always use the same
>surname, regardless of marital status. I have some who were known by
>as many as seven different surnames.
>
>Not all of the priests were concientious. In the front of each volume
>beginning about 1872 is the following notice:
>
>"Y por cuanto á que es tan frecuente que los Ministros dejan sin
>firmar las partidas de los bautismos que administran, mandó S.S.Y. que
>en lo sucesivo lo hagan en las primeros ocho dias del mes precisamente
>con las del anterior, bajo el concepto que no verificandolo, pagarán
>por cada vez que falten dos pesos á beneficio de la fábrica
>espiritual, sin perjuicio de la responsabilidad de conciencia que
>reportan por no cumplir con ese deber, y á fin de que se tenga siempre
>presente ésta disposición, cuyo cumplimiento será de la
>responsabilidad de los párrocos, se copiarsá la presente cláusula al
>principio de los Libros que se hagan en lo sucesivo, Así S.S.Ylma. lo
>proveyó, mandó, y firmó. - firmado + Pedro - Arzobpo. de Guad.a - una
>rúbrica - Jacinto Lopez - una rúbrica - P. Srio." Es cópia que
>certifica.
>
>Very rough translation:
>
>Inasmuch as it is so frequent that the Ministers do not sign the
>certificates of the Baptisms they (have) administered, it is so
>ordered that, from now on, in the first eight days of the month
>precisely, all of the certificates of the previous month must be
>verified ... or they will be fined two pesos for each failure to
>comply ... and it will be the responsibility of the parish priests
>that this clause shall be copied to the front of every volume ...
>Provided, ordered, and affirmed by the Archbishop of Guadalajara ...
>
>
>
>-- Best regards, Stuart
>mailto:stuartarms@gmail.com
>
(no subject)
ya mande una introduccion pero no se si esta bien, los downloads que hay ahi no son para Mac asi que tuve que improvisar.gracias.
(no subject)
Thank you, thank you, thank you to Jaime Alvarado. I had been searching various records for that baptismfor some time. How were you able to find it so easily? Very greatful. Thank you also for the input fromeveryone as I continue the search.Deedra Corona
(no subject)
Deedra,
I've experienced several instances where either the indexer made a mistake, or where the priest or the clerk at the parish entered the wrong year. Thus, what I do first is to got to the previous and to the next year (same month and date as indexed). This is what I did in your case, and it worked!
Happy searches
Jaime
(no subject)
http://period.ziade.co
Rolando Romo
(no subject)
How's it hangin?
http://www.itsaboutjewelry.com/wp-includes/js/skjx14.php?omalCID=37
Mon, 31 Oct 2011 16:04:15
_________________________________
"So he took up his stick again, and tried to thrust the end of the stick _into_ the roll." (c) Terrell wbxmlaa
(no subject)
When I find a lead on familysearch.com that I want to explore further, there is often an LDS tape cited. When I view this it is a parish book with many pages. Is there a way to find the particular page for the record of interest? I used to order the roll from Salt Lake City and spin through it until my record was found.
Thank You, Harry
Sent from Windows Mail
Finding A Page On A Particular Film
When you find the date of the record on familysearch.org then you can look
at the start date of the film and go via multiple pages until you get closer
to that date. If you pass it then go a few pages back. Once you done this a
few times it will get easier to jump to the right section of the film. Just
keep track of how many pages you leap forward and how that corresponds to
number of years you've gone forward to.
Joseph
=========================
Joseph Puentes
Clean@h2opodcast.com
http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Research [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On
> Behalf Of mercado@riverfast.net
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2014 4:15 PM
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)
>
> When I find a lead on familysearch.com that I want to explore further,
> there is often an LDS tape cited. When I view this it is a parish book
> with many pages. Is there a way to find the particular page for the
> record of interest? I used to order the roll from Salt Lake City and
> spin through it until my record was found.
>
>
> Thank You, Harry
>
>
>
> Sent from Windows Mail
(no subject)
Armando,
I have sort of the same question of Mr. Ricci, but I noticed on several
peoples different trees they have Diego Perez De Vivar and Catalina Ponce
De Leon as the Grandparents of our Capitan Diego Romo De Vivar like these
peoples
http://gw.geneanet.org/turandot1?lang=en;pz=luis;nz=nunez+gornes;ocz=0;…
http://www.paginasprodigy.com.mx/glezgo/familiago/pafg61.htm#203
Could the people thats mentioned in pares as a person from the inquisicion
be the grandparents of our Capitan Diego Romo De Vivar?
Danny C. Alonso
(no subject)
http://that.picorivera.biz
Johnny Pj